Oct. 29, 2025

How Dolls Shape Culture, Identity, And Memory with Dr. Erick DuPree, Author of Dolls Beyond Play, Cultural Anthropologist and Doll Collector

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What if a doll could tell the truth about who we are? We sit down with Dr. Eric Dupree—author of Dolls Beyond Play, cultural anthropologist, and lifelong collector—to uncover how dolls carry stories of identity, memory, and belonging across centuries. From nineteenth-century French fashion dolls that globalized taste to handmade folk pieces stitched from scraps, we trace how design choices around skin tone, features, and body shape both reflect and reshape culture.

Beneath it all is a call to honor folk traditions. Shaker, Amish, African American, and Appalachian dolls hold untold histories of resourcefulness and love, made from what was available to mirror what was desired. These pieces are not merely “mixed media figurative objects” but intimate records of families and communities. When we recognize that the doll most directly reflects its maker, we grant overdue dignity to the hands and lives behind them. Whether you collect for memory, create for meaning, or study for insight, treating dolls as cultural texts opens a fuller view of who we are—and how we want to be seen.

If you care about representation, creative entrepreneurship, or the lived meaning of objects, this conversation reframes dolls as cultural texts worth serious attention. Listen to learn how collectors buy from memory, how makers market with story, and how a small figure can carry a world of human experience.

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00:00 - Welcome And Wellness Wake-Up

02:26 - Meet Dr. Eric Dupree

04:10 - Dolls As Culture And Identity

08:52 - Why Artists Make Dolls

12:45 - Collectors, Memory, And Representation

18:20 - Globalization And Hidden Histories

23:10 - Beyond Childhood: Ritual And Meaning

28:05 - Gender, Stigma, And Men Who Collect

34:15 - The Business Reality Of Dollmaking

41:20 - Shifts In Value And Access

48:20 - Digital Avatars And New Models

55:00 - Preserving Stories And Gatekeeping

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Hello everyone, welcome to the Dollpreneur Podcast, where I get to chat and share with you the amazing DAO creators and creatives from around the world.

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I am your host and creator of the Dollpreneur Podcast, Georgette Taylor, and I'm so excited to highlight the inspiring stories from the people who keep the DAO community buzzing with creativity and passion.

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So whether you're a longtime DAO lover or just curious, looking for something new and creative to listen to, join us for engaging, powerful, and insightful conversations that celebrate the heart and soul of the people within the DAO community.

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So what do you say?

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Let's get this show started.

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Hey everybody, we're gonna get to the show in one minute.

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I just wanted to share something with you.

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Um, you know, for years my life has been about creating dolls, podcasts, communities, and stories that inspire others.

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But not long ago, I was completely sidelined by bronchitis.

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The inflammation was so severe that I lost my voice, and that forced me to put my Dalpreneur podcast on hold.

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It also was a wake-up call for me.

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It hit me that no matter how passionate I am about my work as a Donpreneur or all the other things that I do, without my health none of it really matters.

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Creativity takes energy, business takes focus, and living with purpose takes wellness.

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And I was running on empty.

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I realized I couldn't keep creating, building, or even inspiring others if I wasn't taking care of my health first, and I decided to make that a priority.

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That's when I partnered with Vital Health Global.

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Why?

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Because I love what they offer.

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They offer clean, powerful supplements designed to restore energy, strengthen immunity, reduce inflammation, and I'm telling you, I needed all of those things and so much more.

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But they also help me to revitalize my body from the inside out.

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The difference has been really life-changing for me.

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I feel energized, focused, and capable of showing up full for my creativity, my business, my podcast, my purpose, and my family again.

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If you ever felt like your health would stop you from doing what you love to do, then it's really time to take it back.

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So if you would like to take this journey with me in creating better wellness for yourself, you can visit my shop at dynamicwellness.vip because your art, your ideas, and your business deserve the energy to flow, not the burnout to stop you.

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This message is sponsored by Vital Health Global and Dynamic Wellness.

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Let's get on to the show.

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Hello, everybody, welcome to the Doll Panor Podcast.

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I'm your host, Judge A.

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Taylor, and I want to say thank you so much for joining me again today for another fabulous show.

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I have an extraordinary guest, uh I'm so excited.

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I can't wait for him to share his story with you.

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My guest today is Dr.

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Eric Dupree.

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He's an award-winning author, a cultural anthropologist, and long-life doll collector, whose book, Dolls Beyond Play, Reveals the Hidden Stories dolls tell about culture, identity, and memory.

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And I want to thank you for being a guest on the show, Eric.

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I'm so excited to have you today.

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I am so grateful to be here to talk about this, to talk with you, uh, to your viewers, you know, as a social scientist, to learn even more about your dolls and your journey.

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Like the whole dolls never get old for me.

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Yeah, that's that's so cool.

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I love the fact that they never get old for you.

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And your book really um explains that a lot about why they never really get old, because they're so cultural, you know, they go back so far and they have so many different layers of how they show up in people's lives and what they mean to people.

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So I think that's great.

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Um, and so speaking about your book, right, you weave a lot of uh threads together within there the heart of a collector, right?

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You have the eye of an anthropologist, as well as the voice of an author.

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So I think everybody listening here would like to know how did this journey begin for you and which passion came first?

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There has never been a time in my life where there hasn't been dolls.

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Like my earliest memories, there's this great picture of my sister and I.

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Uh, I think I must be like six, and she's probably two, holding um like a Transformer or some toy that I got for Christmas.

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And I'm holding on to this giant baby doll that she she had gotten.

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Um, and it was massive, as big as she was.

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And I was obsessed with it.

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I didn't quite know then why I was so obsessed with it.

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I mean, I do now, but that's like it starts there.

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So the dolls always have come first.

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What made you decide to be an anthropologist?

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If the dolls came first, what trans what you know what transpired in your life to for you to say, well, I don't want to just do history or I don't want to just collect dolls, and I don't want to just spend my time in the dog in the doll community.

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Towards the end of my undergraduate degree, which was in classical uh literature, I was like, I don't know what I want to do because I like all these different things.

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So it's like, um, and anthropology provided the platform for me to take a wide lens at how humanity uh creates identity and self and tells stories.

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Um, and for years my work really focused around like marriage politics, the way that people um collect objects, especially literature, like books and how like stories, right?

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A lot about religion, because they were very common themes for folks.

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And at some point, I had an idea.

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This is probably about 15 years ago.

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I had an idea, um, or I had a question.

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And the question I had, Roget, was why do doll artists make dolls?

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It's a great question, man.

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Because I'm not a doll artist, like as much as I would love to have grown up to be one.

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That's not my talent.

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Oh, my talent can be writing about them, but I can't sculpt a doll.

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That was my question.

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Why did doll artists make dolls?

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And specifically, what I wanted to know was what came first for the artist?

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Like, did they want to create a doll because they love dolls?

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So it was an extension of the story, right?

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Or were they artists and creators, and the doll just happened to be the medium?

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That's that's where it began.

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That's where it began.

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Wow.

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And that and just asking that question leads to so many different answers.

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So that is so many different answers.

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I mean, I could I could just talk, you know, think about even just the the amount of uh doll makers and creators that I have interviewed, you know, on my other show in the doll world and on this show, uh, yeah, the stories are so different, right?

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Of how of where they came to to have a doll represented.

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I know for me personally, my story with the with the big beautiful dolls was that a friend of mine came over to my house and she saw I happen to have, I think I started buying by and large dolls because I just loved the design and I hadn't seen any African-American dolls that looked like that.

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You know, they were just so beautiful, and the cot and the costumes were just so detailed.

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I that's what I really love about fashion dolls.

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And she saw them, and my my friends are entrepreneur at heart.

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So the first thing she thought, why would you spend that much money for a doll?

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And my second thing, you know, when she went back home, she had this idea of this plus size doll because we're plus size women, and she said, Well, do they have any dolls that look like that?

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And we were like, and I was like, no.

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I said, You're talking about baby dolls?

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She says, No.

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I said, There's no dolls, and all I said was, Hey, I just really want to be a part of that.

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So for me, I think I love dolls, but not to the point where I collected them.

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But when she brought that idea to me, I thought this is amazing because they don't have anything that represents who we were as women, and then I think that's a lot of times people do start or do create dolls because there's nothing out there that represents them, right?

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Or their culture, or you know what I mean, uh, or anything that they can connect with.

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And so they decide to do a doll and realize that having thinking about a doll and doing a doll, totally two different things.

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Exactly.

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Um, yeah, and that's what I discovered in the research.

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The research, when I went from doll artist to doll collector, I you know, I talked to a lot of doll artists, and and they're in the book, and I got you know different thoughts and ideas.

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And then I was like, well, why do people collect dolls?

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Because I still wasn't sure why I collected dolls.

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And what I discovered from collectors was that they collect dolls because dolls represent a reflection of themselves.

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So a person of color might collect many dolls and also might really focus on collecting dolls of color that like them.

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Right.

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And if they were um, if they grew up without that representation because all there were were white dolls, there's like an even deeper layer there into like why they're collecting um or creating.

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And I think we see that, we really see that birth right now with African American dolls, like independent makers, like toy makers, right?

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But in you know, wide range of racial color, hair texture, appropriate features, and for decades, the hundreds, thousands of years, that just didn't exist for a whole bunch of reasons.

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And I get into that in my book.

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Yes.

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But yeah, so that so it went from artist to collector, and I had this book idea.

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And as I began to write the book, what I realized is that there was no single source, and this is shocking to say, but there really was no single source of doll scholarship across time.

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You know, like that was accessible to people.

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There might be an article in a journal, there might be books about child psychology in dolls, there might be uh a niche doll with a book like Japanese dolls, there might be plenty of like um value guides.

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That's true, yes, and a plethora of stuff about Barbie.

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Yeah, but like nothing in between.

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And so the book, the book that people hold in their hands, the end of the book I wrote first, and then I went back because I was like, this isn't a complete story, which is why I say in the opening of the book that I didn't expect or anticipate to write 450 pages about dolls.

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And I was just I was just gonna ask you that question like, where is a moment during your research where you thought, this wow, this is like bigger than I than I thought it was going to be?

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Um, there were two moments where I thought thought that.

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One, I read a study that was done by someone in museum sciences, and it was about French fashion dolls and the globalization of the 19th century French fashion dolls.

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She had a line in her paper, which basically said a little girl in Iowa could have the same doll as a little girl in Venice.

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First time that that globalization of dolls really happened, whether they were Brew, Jameau, uh, whether they were Kessner.

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And I was like, wow, we don't talk about that globalization when we think about it like in today's language, like Barbie.

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Think about it as like bigger.

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Yes.

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And the other thing, and this is the anthropologist, how dolls influence culture, that same French fashion doll or a uh China head doll from like 1860.

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So a little girl in the antebellum south might have that doll, right?

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Right, and the enslaved person, they're creating, they're seeing the kinship of that little girl with this doll.

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And then they go and they create their version of that from the materials that they have.

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People look at folk dolls, and I don't think they think about like the value of a scrap of fabric.

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Doesn't have that.

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So now that little girl has her version of a doll, and they're both mirroring the same behavior of identity.

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Right.

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But what we don't ever talk about is that the doll that the white girl has, right?

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And Anchabel himself has the value of that of that whole enslaved family.

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That's how you're overlap.

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Wow, I had a white moment.

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And I was like, there's more here about like what dolls are doing and why.

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And the other aha moment I had is whenever we think about dolls, or whenever dolls are talked about, it's always through the lens of a child.

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And we never, not a lot of research or conversation happens around the doll is bigger, the ritual object of the doll, the talismanic property of a doll.

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All of that.

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So once the floodgates are open, it was I'm not done.

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Keep it going.

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I'm just keeping it going.

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I think that was interesting what you said, what you said, because I don't I don't think people look at it.

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Well, you know, like you said, nobody really looked at it that way.

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And even when it comes to folk dolls, right?

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You most people, when they see that type of doll, they see it in a museum, right?

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Or they see it in a place where they think that, okay, it it belongs in a museum, like it's art.

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Like I still don't think sometimes that they connect that that children played with these things or created these things to give them comfort to play with them because you're so used to seeing them behind glass.

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Sometimes, you know, what also happens in the sterilization, I call it sterilization, the sterilization of the museum sciences is that folk doll, it ends up being called like mixed media figurative object of you know, indigenous people.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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If it looks like a doll and smells like a doll, it's a doll.

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Just call it a doll.

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It's gonna play like a doll, trust me.

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And so because of that, because there's like this idea that dolls aren't don't have value in the cultural, in the intellectualized cultural conversation, they don't get the platform that you know a piece of pottery gets.

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Right.

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Um, a painting gets.

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But unlike those other objects, the doll is the only object that directly reflects its maker.

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That's so true.

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Behind you, they directly reflect the maker.

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That's true.

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Whether it's an art doll or doll.

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That's so true.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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I never just like that.

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It was a wow moment for me too.

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I never thought about that.

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But hearing somebody say that, it made me think about that totally different just now.

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So let me ask you this.

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So you all your anthropology work and the things that you do, and also I think looking at dolls from uh their cultural perspective, was there one tradition, I guess, or community uh that you discovered that completely surprised you about their doll tradition or how they utilize dolls?

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That's a great question.

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There are two.

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I would think I think the thing that surprised me the most, and I hope it surprises readers as they read the book, is no matter the culture, in almost every instance, a doll is teaching a child or a community a pattern of behavior.

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So antique Japanese dolls of the Hitama, sorry, of the you know, girls' day, you have these ceremonial dolls, and below the dolls are dishes and play food, and little girls are learning to come into service into uh what it means to hold space for being the maker.

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That exists as far back as ancient Egypt and as far present as the original purpose of Barbie.

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Because Barbie, when Ruth Handler created her, was creating a doll that was like the perfect hostess, the perfect house housewife, what have you, uh teaching that same behavioral pattern.

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So I would say that the thing that really stood out to me was it didn't matter who the culture was or who the people were, the interactions remain the same.

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Even when you look at dolls in religious iconography, like some people will see a statue of Mary and it's been dressed.

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The adult is doing that, but the idea of care, the idea of honoring, the idea of believing that then the vessel it becomes a vessel of the divine, again, that exists throughout many cultures, even so much today.

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Like you probably don't think about it, but you likely talk to your dolls, even after I literally do.

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Hi, how are you, doll?

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But you know, you're just having a dialogue, like, oh, this outfit looks cute.

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There's a little change.

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Uh yeah, and so it's a natural occurrence in in in human development.

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So I found that fascinating.

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So what do you so what do you think dolls tell us about ourselves then?

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You know, how we see beauty, I you know, gender and and and things like that.

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What do you what do you really think that they tell us about who we are?

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So that answer is probably as different as as every person who collects dolls.

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But people who collect and love dolls do it from a place of memory.

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You know, so in the beginning of this conversation, you know, you said you really weren't a doll collector.

00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:40.799
True.

00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.359
It wasn't your thing, which is so funny because you have such a popular podcast now about dolls.

00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:46.000
Yeah.

00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:55.359
Well, I you know, I I I not to interrupt you, but I did that because I know that the people who made the dolls, nobody would hear, like you said, nobody would hear their stories.

00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:04.640
And I just thought it was just so important for these independent doll makers that were not seen on the shelf, that people knew about who they were and the work that they did, you know.

00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.680
So yeah, that was that was really the reason.

00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:12.160
But yeah, and that's such a and that's part of the reason why like I wrote this book.

00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.200
At some point, you know, you saw the Byron Lars dolls.

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:28.240
Byron Lars, of course, a famous African-American fashion designer, dressed Whitney Houston, everybody, and his dolls are both fashion but Africana, you know, like it's both.

00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:39.279
It is so it is a reckoning to homeland in a way that is familiar to you, that you reckon you see, and it's gonna birth a wider process.

00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:47.759
So when people collect dolls, for the most part, they collect them from a place of I remember this doll when my mother had this doll.

00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.640
Uh this doll was missing in my childhood, fill in the blank.

00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:53.279
Right.

00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:58.559
More often than not, that is the especially for adults, that is the thing.

00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:08.880
And when I read when I when I was doing the book during the pandemic, I people had so much time that I went to all every possible doll group and I dropped a survey.

00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:16.640
And the survey results are in the book, but one of them questions I asked, I asked several questions, but one of them was why do you collect dolls?

00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.880
Were you allowed to collect dolls?

00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:21.680
Do you how often do you think about dolls?

00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:22.960
There is nothing.

00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:29.119
Other collectors might disagree, but there is nothing like a doll collector.

00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:29.920
That's true.

00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.119
Doll collector, doll convention, like there's just nothing like it.

00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:42.319
It's it's it is a unique brand of people and language and shared values, no, regardless of how you come into the dolls.

00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:43.279
That is so true.

00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:45.839
I've been to a couple of doll shows, and I, yeah, it is.

00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.000
There's nothing like the community, it really isn't.

00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:53.759
And and I think for people are surprised, you know, and I'm sure they're surprised when they they see you and that you wrote a book about that.

00:19:53.920 --> 00:20:00.319
They're surprised when I go, you know, when I go and I see people and I'm I'm talking to people about what I do, and they're like, oh, I never thought about it like that.

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:07.039
And I'm like, well, but you know, people have ideas, they want to put out things out there that represent themselves, you know.

00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:12.559
They they they love, like you said, the the texture of a doll, the style of a doll, the clothing of the doll.

00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.480
I mean, so I I do think it's such a beautiful, eclectic community, you know.

00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:26.559
Um, so let me ask you this question since you wrote this book about dolls, and you you deal with a lot of cultural, a lot of history, psychology.

00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:46.160
When you were doing the book, um, and you asked that question, the survey, the the question um you know, to all doll collectors, did you find that there were any setbacks, I guess, or a lot of challenges for for young men, for boys in those communities, right?

00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:51.839
To play with dolls, to have that be accepted by the community or the culture or anything like that.

00:20:52.000 --> 00:21:07.440
Because I think that's a huge, it's a huge thing, which is I think is interesting because there's so many male doll creators, you know, but but just having you know the the ideas and looking at those cultures and and talking to people, has that been uh an issue?

00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.839
And if it has been an issue, you know, how how have they dealt with that?

00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:18.400
Yeah, I think that if you so what I know from the research and even for myself, right?

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:23.440
Uh, because just because I wanted that baby doll doesn't mean I got to have that baby doll on it.

00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:23.599
Right.

00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:24.880
Exactly.

00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.920
Yeah, I think that depending on the generation, it shifts a little.

00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:41.359
But anybody who comes through the 70s, 80s, early 90s, you know, dolls are dolls are a segmented gender toy, gender object.

00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:52.720
And when talking to doll collectors who are men, uh, what I would hear is I either a lot of this, I collect the doll that I wanted as a child.

00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.920
I collect the doll that reminds me or takes me to a fantastical place, um, like escapism.

00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:08.160
They collect a fashion doll because they always loved fashion and the doll, but they're not fashion designers.

00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:08.480
Right.

00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:10.960
They totally couldn't follow their passion as a kid.

00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:11.200
Yeah.

00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:22.000
Collect the fashion doll uh because the fashion doll allows them to be what they want to be.

00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:23.039
What they want to be, right?

00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:24.079
What they want, yeah.

00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.200
Uh so it fills a gap in the memory.

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.799
And I talked to a lot of men who collect dolls in secret.

00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:37.839
Dolls are either put away, they're hidden, they're in a separate room where no one sees them because there's shame there.

00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:43.200
Like there was even shame for me in some way around was I ready?

00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:45.680
I held this book back for about a year.

00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.160
Uh I wasn't sure I was ready to be Dr.

00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:56.000
Dolls and to have my scholarship eclipsed by dolls, because there's something that people sometimes don't take that seriously.

00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:57.920
Oh, you study dolls.

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:17.440
Now, if I said I was the foremost expert on you know early modern sculpture, people would be like, Oh, but when you say I'm an expert on dolls, you're like Barbie, and I'm like, Well, no, no, dolls that sell for thousands of dollars, that there's only one of these dolls, dolls that are in the Louvre.

00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:18.960
Uh, people you know get that.

00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:20.799
And I so that also exists.

00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.279
And when you look at collector spaces, it's mostly women.

00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:35.680
It's not that men aren't welcome, but it can feel um if your social circle isn't inclusive with women, then it can feel like you don't belong there.

00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:40.319
That's I know I don't experience that, but I may I became Dr.

00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:41.119
Dolls.

00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:41.759
Right.

00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:43.680
And proud of it.

00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:50.240
So that's a big one, Georgia, is that people they don't feel that they have a place or a voice.

00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:57.359
Um and the interesting thing about it is when you talk to male doll artists, and many of them have been on your show.

00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:57.920
Yes.

00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:07.279
Uh, you know, I'm I'm friends with Astor Yang, Andrew, and and Mike Beuse and Fabiola, and Joey, and yeah, and Mel and Robert.

00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.640
Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying.

00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:11.119
They're and they're their dolls are fabulous.

00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.240
I mean, they make amazing, amazing dolls.

00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:24.880
And you know, it it yeah, I I think it's a shame that we still have that stigma, like you said, of a doll being segmented, you know, for this population.

00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:30.319
And if you talk to them, they'll tell you that they created the doll that was missing in their life.

00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:32.400
I mean, that's why there's gene.

00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:34.880
Gene is now, yeah.

00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:36.799
No, gene is now.

00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:39.839
You know, it's a ver it's another part of their identity.

00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:44.640
But gene is now, and it's so great when he talks about it because I'm like, you're not wrong.

00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.599
Um, you know, Robert Connor is a little bit different.

00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:54.960
I don't uh, you know, he he didn't connect with me uh to interview, but I would imagine the story is is likely the same.

00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:01.680
You know, you know, not saying that the doll is him, like Gene is Mel, but definitely uh the next extension of the story.

00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.759
The next extension of him, yeah, definitely.

00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:14.160
And and you know, and I think it's I I think for him, it and I can't speak for him, I mean I had him on the show, but still I think it was a more of a sculptural thing for him in the art way, you know what I mean?

00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:25.519
That he could create and bring to life this like you said, and I'm sure it was part of him, but he he had the ability to be able to sculpt that out and see what it is that he wanted to bring to life for himself, you know?

00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:27.519
So yeah, yeah.

00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:29.279
So I think that's really interesting.

00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:36.000
So I know I look, I know writing the book probably was an academic project for you, but it became more of a personal journey.

00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.759
And so, how did this work change you as a person?

00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:48.640
I know you collected dolls, but the fact that you got to see it in a whole broader perspective, how how has that changed you or has it changed you as a person?

00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:50.720
I have a lot more.

00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:57.920
So I grew up, you know, in a time of like the art doll movements of the 80s and 90s with all the magazines.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.759
So I knew a lot about that.

00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.000
The dolls that I remember, the dolls that I love, it's the dolls that I collect.

00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:17.279
You know, so it was like I found it really fascinating, and what sort of shifted perspective for me was looking at how dolls have moved through time and have remained the same.

00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:31.920
Um and it was really fascinating to talk to doll artists who the doll is the medium, but not the not the uh like it wasn't the doll first.

00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:45.680
Like my favorite artist that I remember growing up, whose work I collect, who I'm friends with to this day, Monica, she when I interviewed her, you know, she was like, I was a painter, I made cloth dolls for my kids, people told me to sell the cloth doll.

00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:52.640
So I began sculpting to kind of continue telling the story, the femininity that she used to paint.

00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:53.039
Right.

00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.079
And then at some point, she just stops.

00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:57.920
And I'm like, why did you stop?

00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:00.160
You were like making money, everyone loved your dolls.

00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.119
Why did you stop?

00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:07.119
And her answer to me was the dolls no longer fit the artistic journey.

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.160
And when I say stop, I mean art stop and now sculpts in bronze.

00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:16.480
And I'm like, her, it was never about the dolls.

00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.880
As much as she loved dolls and doll collectors, it was never about the doll.

00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.279
It was about what she wanted to say.

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.359
You see that with a lot of artists.

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.319
Um, and I was I was just fascinated by that.

00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.279
Like, oh wow, I'm obsessed with your dolls.

00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:32.000
Please make more.

00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:34.640
And you're like, yeah, I'm done with dolls, no more dolls.

00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:44.000
Um, so that I think the other thing that I found really fascinating is, and we don't ever really talk about this enough.

00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:45.599
It's a business.

00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.200
People just think, oh, I'm gonna make a doll when it's no big deal.

00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:58.799
And like, you know, even just recently, like Robert Tonner posted about tariffs and how the tariffs are impacting his ability to craft the dolls.

00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:05.440
And the funny thing is that Robert Tonner, you know, with Rachel Hoffman, they're not making lots of dolls.

00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.519
They're probably making$10 a year, right?

00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:18.400
Like, it's not like back in the day of how Tonner dolls were hundreds of dolls or these to hear that, like, wow, even the small limited number is almost impossible to get produced.

00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.640
Um or then to hear people say, well, just make your dolls in America.

00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:24.720
Oh, it's not that easy.

00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:25.599
Not that easy.

00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:30.480
And so I was so grateful that for the first time he was really transparent about like the costs.

00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:38.559
Um I and I had that really great conversation in the book with Wendy Lockman, who was just finally like, it's not sustainable.

00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.039
Love the dolls, not sustainable.

00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:42.400
And it was like, wow.

00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:43.599
Yeah, wow.

00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:45.839
And I think that we don't talk about that, you know.

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:56.720
I think that and I think that artists who have um struggled and maybe they no longer make dolls or make dolls in a different way, are hesitant to talk about it because it feels like a failure.

00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:15.519
You know, I think that's why, you know, why give them the platform because I I do think that at the end of the day, and I like to talk to about talk to them about business because I think people, like you said, don't understand, you know, yes, you can make a doll, or you can say, I want to make a doll, but you know how much money and time goes into that.

00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:34.000
And and also the struggles I think that the dollpreneur has is because they're creative and they want to create, and then they find themselves stuck in a place where now they have to be much more either analytical, much more business-minded, all of these other things that go into you making this doll and you wanting to get out into the public.

00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:35.200
It goes beyond that.

00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:45.680
And I and I try to give them space so that they can come and talk about that because I think that is part of them being a doll maker, and that's because if you make a doll, you want to sell it the majority of the time.

00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.799
How do you sell it?

00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:52.319
Now you have to then become another person, put on other hats to do that, and that can be a struggle.

00:29:52.400 --> 00:30:06.880
And I think the tariffs, you know, I think it sucks honestly, because it is really destroying a Lot of lives, we know that, but destroying you know the opportunity for independent doll makers to make dolls.

00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:17.680
And it because it's it costs enough already for the tooling and all of those things, but then when you're trying to bring them over, it's gonna cost the consumer so much more money on that end.

00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.440
So I I do think it's a shame.

00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:35.119
Yeah, and I think the other thing I really learned in the book uh, too, and researching and writing and interviewing is that um the consumer belief about doll's value had a free fall to someplace else.

00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:45.839
So it used to be that you know, in the 90s, early 2000s, people had the the relationship to doll, to consumer was very different.

00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.119
So, you know, and there are lots of access points.

00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:54.400
And there are lots of reasons from that, economic reasons, you know, financial boom, all of that.

00:30:54.720 --> 00:31:01.119
But then what happens is that there's a all these dolls now that no one knows what to do with that don't have a lot of value.

00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:09.920
The people are like, well, what's why would I spend$100 on you know your fashion doll?

00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:30.559
Oh, or you can even see just like even of the collectible Barbies now, like you can see how globalization has changed their design to kind of like make it look nice, but have to cut the corner so people can afford to buy it because uh people don't have the resources to buy or to spend a lot.

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.039
I mean, I think Joey Versaw is a really great example.

00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:38.079
He makes such beautiful dolls and he works so hard to keep them at a price that people can buy.

00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.359
And sometimes I talk to him like, dude, you're not making any money.

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.079
It's a break-even for you.

00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:44.720
Right.

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.680
It's true.

00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:47.039
It's it really is true.

00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:48.079
It really is so so.

00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:57.279
Let me ask you so because you're in a space where you see that and you say, you know, like the value uh of the the consumer, right, to the doll maker is different, right?

00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:07.279
I guess what message do we both have in a way, really, you know, that would leave them thinking that the magic of their dolls and and why their stories matter still matter.

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:24.319
Uh, I think that for people who are making art dolls, dolls that like Niata, North American doll institute uh people I think that those people are creating art first.

00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.119
And it happens in many cases to be a doll.

00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:36.000
And so there's a niche community that are buying that, but a lot of those people have other jobs and art is kind of on the side.

00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:53.119
I think for the person who is a professional doll maker, like full-time professional doll maker, making dolls that are not mass-produced, like maybe we want to stay, or like or like integrity or what have you, but like Joshua who made Pigeon, like Joan Green for a while, like they're people who are making dolls.

00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:02.240
Uh, I would say that they have to come to a place where they really market to and know their consumer and really tell that story.

00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:10.400
And unfortunately, you know, for the doll artist, sometimes the ability to hire someone to help with that marketing just isn't there.

00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:16.079
You know, like there is no point in putting your dolls in a room full of skinny white women.

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:24.400
They might be interested, but you have to remember buying what has the nostalgia or what takes them to a place.

00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:30.799
And so your dolls need to be marketed to people who see themselves in your work.

00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.599
And sometimes that platform doesn't exist.

00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:36.960
I think the other thing, too, is we've become so digital.

00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.119
The doll magazines are gone.

00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:51.519
Part of the reason for this book, too, is a lot of great doll scholarship exists in those doll magazines from the 90s and 2000s, our interviews, but those magazines never got indexed.

00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:55.440
They're not like available in the website.

00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:00.000
And so, because of that, uh, you have to exume those stories.

00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.200
You know, because of that, there's no uh people aren't looking, they don't know where to look.

00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:11.199
So I think that people who have been successful, like Rachel with the uh virtual doll.

00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:12.480
Mm-hmm.

00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:18.320
She's been able to get success and kind of revive Robert Tonner because there is an audience.

00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:29.119
I also think that people like Joey, who have been making dolls for years now, are just beginning to kind of get recognized by like the modern doll collectors convention, uh and sliding in.

00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:30.800
And it can be, you have to be in.

00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:32.719
I guess my answer to you, this is my long answer.

00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.639
I'm sorry, it's okay, you're fine.

00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:35.199
You're fine.

00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.039
You have to be in it for the long run.

00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:38.480
Yeah, you have to, yeah.

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:40.000
I I think so too.

00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:45.760
It's a long game, and at the end of the day, you're making a doll that you absolutely love.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:50.079
Right, no matter what happens, yeah, no matter what happens, yeah.

00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.280
Yeah, that's so true.

00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:55.440
And you mentioned uh part of the digital world and stuff, and I was gonna answer that question.

00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:05.440
So so now that we're in the age of digital like avatars and online doll worlds, pretty much like how do you see this changing in where people connect to dolls or maybe even to themselves?

00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.880
Since you say, you know, dolls are so uh personal to people, right?

00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:11.519
How does that how do you see that?

00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.519
I think that I'm gonna use a couple of examples.

00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.599
I'm gonna start with Joshua McKinney and Pigeon.

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:20.639
I love his work.

00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:28.320
Joshua used to make a lot more dolls, and now he really doesn't make many dolls, but pigeon has become her own real person.

00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.440
That is so true.

00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.960
And on a side note, Joshua, I want you on my show, but okay, go ahead.

00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:45.760
His dolls have all he's and so he's taken pigeon to a place where she's an avatar, she's real, people mimic her, makeup and whatnot.

00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.320
And so that's the sustainability.

00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:54.880
And it's from that powerful like media place that he's been able to reinvent the art.

00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:03.599
So now when he issues a capsule collection of pigeon, five dollars a year or whatever, they sell probably enough money to support himself for a year, right?

00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.840

How Dolls Shape Culture, Identity, And Memory with Dr. Erick DuPree, Author of Dolls Beyond Play, Cultural Anthropologist and Doll Collector

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